The Miata, FR-S, and BRZ Are Stupid Cars

"08GTImkV" (08GTImkV) 02/01/2015 at 00:10 • Filed to: None

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The purpose of this post is to express my opinion, not to insult people and their taste in cars. If you like/own these cars and see the value in them (and don't think they are stupid) then I hope you continue to enjoy them.

Like many of you, I was really excited about the new Miata. Yeah, I know no one has driven the US Spec version of the new car, but I am already disappointed after hearing that it will only have 155hp/ 147 lb ft of torque. Yeah, maybe I should reserve judgment until the reviews of this car come out (or until I drive it), but I am already assuming it will be like every other Miata: Fun, but not incredibly fast.

I was hoping that Mazda would have listened to fan's complaints about the FRS/BRZ, which is arguably the Miata's biggest rival. Basically, many enthusiasts like the concept of an affordable, RWD sports car, but wished it was more powerful. The Miata, FRS, and BRZ are also all not selling incredibly well, so I though Mazda would try to do something different. Instead they repackaged the same car they have been selling for the past 25 years and I don't think it is going to help them sell more cars.

At the rate these cars are selling, I wouldn't be surprised if they ceased to exist in the next 5 years.

So why are these cars stupid?

Basically they offer all the drawbacks to sports car ownership and virtually none of the benefits. Yeah, I get that sports cars should be compromised, but the compromise should NEVER be in performance, especially compared to other cars in the price range. I can totally accept a sports car that is less refined, less spacious, less luxurious, and has worse fuel economy compared to other similarly priced cars (sports cars still have to meet a minimum threshold when it comes to these things). To me, it is hard to justify buying a car that is all these things but also SLOWER than other cars of similar price.

These cars should be AT LEAST as fast as cars like the GTI or Focus ST. Unless you drive on the track or autocross, there is almost no reason NOT to buy something like a hot hatch if you are looking for performance in this price range. Hot hatches may not be as "fun to drive" or RWD, but they offer way more space, comfort, features, and (most importantly) performance for about the same price as the above cars.

Fun factor and performance do not have to be mutually exclusive. If I wanted to experience something that is slow and incredibly compromised, but fun to drive, I would rather pay to drive a couple laps in a go-kart than buy any of the above cars.

What really sucks is that I WANT TO LIKE THESE CARS. I strongly believe that there is a market for cheap, affordable RWD sports cars. However, I find these cars only go ¾ of the way and don't completely offer what I and other consumers want. If automakers can meet the performance expectations consumers expect for the price range, then I believe these affordable sports cars would sell much more than they are now.

bryan40oop > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:13

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bob and john > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:13

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they are less about speed and more about the feeling of driving.

which I find stupid. you want to feel the road, you get a motorcycle.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:16

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I'm fine with the power numbers with the new Miata because it's gonna lose weight over the previous generation and I don't think lightweight roadsters need a lot of power. I'm a huge MGB fan and those never broke 100hp in it's 18 year run. I do see where you are coming from though. I like my power to be in muscle cars, not small, lightweight sportscars/roadsters. Just my opinion on the matter.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:17

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As a Miata owner they dont need crazy hp to have fun. The Miata's beauty is that it feels fast going 45. I have ridden in a 330whp turbo miata and that is just insane. Hp isnt everything.

StingrayJake > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:17

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Or you could go the other direction and get a pony car: affordable and power to spare in a big, heavy, lumbering package.

Bairclaw > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:19

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I feel like those cars are mainly in the market to be leased by anyone, only to end up being modified by a bunch of people who enjoy them for the right reasons. I've been in a BRZ once and I did notice the lack of oomph to it. But with some parts they can be great cars.

signintoburnerlol > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:19

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Beginner cars at stock, intermediate and up to race level spec when you wanna throw the money.

A throwback at an era where horsepower wasn't a big deal, where finite details were.

Have a nice day.

JustWaitingForAMate > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:20

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Car is lighter then the previous models.

Car has more power then the previous models.

Car still has the same design ethos as all the previous models.

Still complains.

Seriously, strap a freaking turbo to it if POWWWWWWWWWWWER is your only concern.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 00:21

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Feel the road you say?

mmmm feels rough.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > StingrayJake 02/01/2015 at 00:21

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Pony car you say? *That moment you realize the only pony car pic you have on desktop is a Mopar...*

scoob > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 00:21

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Incorrect, you go rollerskating!

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:21

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I'd bet that a 2200lb car with 155hp(Miata) isn't much slower, if not actually faster, than a 3000-3100lb car with 210-220hp(GTI)

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > JustWaitingForAMate 02/01/2015 at 00:22

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Go the 'Murican way and supercharge it!

Übel > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:23

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I'm pretty sure the Miata has never been faster than the GTI, still been working out just fine for it.

bob and john > scoob 02/01/2015 at 00:24

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ok, feel the road at any significant speed :P

bob and john > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 00:25

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you just sad that you know you miata will never match my bike in performance or feel :P

08GTImkV > StingrayJake 02/01/2015 at 00:25

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Yeah, I didn't even acknowledge in my post any of the affordable pony cars. The ideal car for me is in between what the Miata/FRS/BRZ and the Mustang are, at a $25-30k price range.

JustWaitingForAMate > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 02/01/2015 at 00:26

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...I'm not even 'Murican and I know that's not the 'Murican way.

It needs an LS swap.

08GTImkV > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 00:27

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I totally understand. However, I don't think that giving performance of a Focus ST or GTI compromises the car. It's not as if either of those cars are considered incredibly fast.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > JustWaitingForAMate 02/01/2015 at 00:28

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Yes, how could I be so stupid?

08GTImkV > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 02/01/2015 at 00:30

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I am skeptical of the weight. I think there will be a US-Spec version of the car like the Alfa 4C.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 00:33

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What do you mean? Set up right in tight corners a miata will hang with a bike, long sweepers and straights no way. I have ridden plenty of bikes and they are fun but id much rather drive my Miata any day. Except for maybe my dirt bike. But that is make for jumping and trails. Miata wont do so well....

Also set up right cars can beat bikes all day. as seen here. 500hp and spinning tires and still beats them

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:35

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But wrong wheel drive. DDing a miata is honestly one of the most fun things you can do. I can hammer it and not worry about going crazy fast. I put my foot down in my Talon Tsi and i can hit illegal speeds pretty quick. Sure the miata isnt for some people and thats ok cause that means there are more of them for me to enjoy :)

Axial > JustWaitingForAMate 02/01/2015 at 00:35

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The new ND does not have more power than the NC. It has less, actually. The new car is a hair torquier.

That light weight is what it's all about, though.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:37

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Then don't buy one.

bob and john > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 00:41

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lol you must be kifdding yourself if you think those biker when flat out.

150 HP, 400LBs bike do not get beaten by a 500HP{, 3000LBs mustang unless the riders are complete twats and lauch softer then my grandmother

Jedidiah > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 00:44

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I honestly agree.

If you are going to compromise for a particular body style, you might as well get the best all round performance for your dollar, which simply is not the Miata or BRZ. Unless you have multiple cars and each one is used for a particular driving style, but for many of the folks who have few cars, it simply isn't a good choice.

It isn't even the best choice if you wanted a secondary fun toy. If you want a heinously impractical two seater that can't carry anything with great road feel that is actually fast; get a motorcycle. Chances are you'd save money.

Otherwise, you can have as much fun with a regular rwd sedan or coupe as you can with a sports car and it will have less compromises in the design and be infitely more useable. Hell; even a 2 door 4x4 is lots of fun and can be used for many more things than the Miata aside from autocross, but how often do you do that if you have a small number of vehicles?

A lot of people get caught up in the "purposeful" and "minimalist" nature of a tiny sports car, which is pretty stupid because they are just a toy. A fleeting plaything isn't minimalist or purposeful—it is anything but that, it's a toy. Tiny sports cars have always been an accessory; either fashion or as a compliment to someone's more useful cars already in their garage.

Jedidiah > StingrayJake 02/01/2015 at 00:49

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Pretty much everything from the 60s and 70s is hopeless and lumbering in terms of the handling department, regardless of body style. It doesn't matter whether its a Mustang, a Cadillac Fleetwood, a Honda S800, a MGB or a Toyota Corolla; it's suspension will always be lackluster.

Modern pony cars; yeah, they're still that way unless you get a stupidly expensive one.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > scoob 02/01/2015 at 00:52

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Incorrect! You go running

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 00:55

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Yea professional riders vs street riders. Roll race vs dig race.

bob and john > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 00:57

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my SV isnt a top speed bike, but hell, even I would get off the line faster (and i'm no pro)

if you think i'm full of it, i will GLADLY line up against a 500HP stang. (fact, I have) and i will take him up to 70/80mph. after that, my bike doesnt have the HP to win.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Jedidiah 02/01/2015 at 00:58

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You point is invalid

Jedidiah > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 01:01

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Just because it's been done, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Perhaps I should have said "more easily and smartly usuable."

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 01:01

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Exactly so in about 1/8th a mile they will pass you and the race will be over.

bob and john > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 01:02

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on MY bike yes. my 75HP, supersports.

give me a liter machine. I wont just beat them./..I will fucking demoralize them.

bob and john > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 02/01/2015 at 01:10

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actually,. I take that back... stock sv650s (off forum numbers here) runs ~ 12.5-12.8 in the quarter

a boss 302 LS is about that time. (ofd a mag cover)

if the bro here spins his tire like that, i might be able to take him on my SV. ouch.

promoted by the color red > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:11

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Every time I hear people pining for cars from the '90s - like the original Miata, Sentra SE-R, or Integra GS-R - ones with lightweight sporty chassis and a "whopping" 150-or-so HP with instant N/A response, I point to this.

We'll get them...and then whine about the inadequate power.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > promoted by the color red 02/01/2015 at 01:14

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I feel like I'm the only one not complaining. My favorite roadster, the MGB, never got above 100 hp and only had like 110 lb-ft of torque.

promoted by the color red > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 02/01/2015 at 01:18

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Agreed. 155 HP is adequate if your chassis weighs next to nothing.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Axial 02/01/2015 at 01:23

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Power to weight though, it has more.

Tapas > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:23

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You know what...I agree

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:25

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According to one of the new reviews, it will only weigh slightly more, but that's due to the larger engine.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 02/01/2015 at 01:27

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With only 12 less horsepower, more torque, and 200+ lbs diet, I think it'll be quicker than the NC. But the MGB was available with more than 100 hp, unless you consider the V8 a separate model :)

NJAnon > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:28

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Unfair comparison. Being as the Mazda Miata is a roadster (like the Lotus Elan, old Jaguars). Those roadsters were never about huge speed. They were about just the drive. BRZ, Hyundai Genesis, FR-S are counted as sports cars entry level.

And I'm willing to put up with the BRZ or FR-S except in price. Near $29,000 after taxes for an entry level 2 door sports car? No thanks. And the sad part is that I don't expect Scion or Subaru to lower the price because the market for that class is jacked up they can't justify the lower pricing.

Manuél Ferrari > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:33

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Someone needs to graph every generation of Miata's power to weight ratio vs other cars that cost similar money at the time. Would be interesting to see.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/01/2015 at 01:35

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I meant with the 4cyl. I know the V8 was more than 100. Most of them were the 4cyl though.

Desu-San-Desu > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:35

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I will say this is a perfect time, as an old-school Oppo alum, to bring up one of the old cardinal tenets of being a Jalop:

Driving slow cars fast > Driving fast cars slow .

I've owned slow cars all of my life- an NB Miata being one of them. The 2006 Mini Cooper S I just bought is the first car to break that mold and you know what? Sometimes it sucks. Because there is very few places I can use all of that power. I have to modulate that power much more attentively in order to not get speeding tickets or burn all of the rubber off my tires and honestly? It's a little distracting and annoying. Sure, it's awesome to hear that supercharger whine when passing someone, merging onto the interstate, or carving up a mountain pass, but in every day driving around town, I barely get a chance to really dip into it and that makes me feel like I'm just kind of...wasting it.

One of the nice things about driving my slower previous cars, especially the Miata and my '91 Audi 80 Quattro was the fact I could just floor it everywhere. I could give those cars the beans and drive them hard everywhere and it would feel awesome. I'd feel like I was motherfucking Ayrton Senna, even if I was only doing 35mph. There wasn't any worrying about moderation of the throttle pedal- just floor it, slam through the gears at top revs, and put a big grin on your face and then laugh your ass off when some guy in a Mustang blows by you with an annoyed/confused glare directed in your direction.

There's also the issue of limits. I like cars with lower limits. Just like the FR-S/BRZ came from the factory. Why? Because you get all the joy of being able to sling the car around and get it to slide, but at substantially less lethal speeds. Strap into Mustang GT and try and take that roundabout fast enough to break the tires loose. You can do it no problem- at 60. On paper, that's impressive. In real life? It's a little terrifying. Why? Because if you fuck up, you're going to fuck up big time. But take an FR-S on stock rubber and chuck it around that same roundabout and you're going to get all the tail-happy shit your grin can eat at 25 or 30mph. It's about accessibility of the Fun Factor.

Cars like the FR-S or Miata are less about impressing the guy in the cubicle next to you or bragging about spec sheet stats and more about being fun for the central character in their little production: the driver. They're FUN- in their intended environment. They're not straight-line stoplight bandits, they weren't designed for that, they weren't marketed as such, and people need to stop expecting it. They're made for a different type of driving experience .

Everybody these days has grown up on Top Gear and the Fast and the Furious franchise and they think the entire nexus of performance is encompassed by a car's ability to throttle oversteer and post an impressive 0-60 dick lengt- I mean acceleration time. Sure, it's great fun to mash the go pedal and burn some rubber- I used to do it in my old Miata all the time (yes, it will do donuts in stock form). You know what else that is? Expensive. I only did when I was going to get new tires installed soon anyway, as tires are not cheap and if you're not rich enough to buy replacement tires every couple of months, you're not rich enough to bitch about horsepower figures on a budget handling-oriented sportscar.

Not all cars are created for the same purpose. Some cars are made for the dragstrip. Some for the highway. Some for the boulevard. Some for the autocross parking lot. Some for the time attack track days. And some, like the Miata, are for that twisty, windy, narrow little pass going down the mountain. And in that environment, the priorities aren't horsepower figures or 0-60 times; the priorities for that kind of driving are braking, handling, steering feel, low weight, torsional rigidity, and communication between the car, driver, and road. If you sacrifice those for power, you're either going to have to change your budget or change the intended usage of the vehicle.

It may not be what a lot of my peers (both here and in the real world) want to hear, but it's the cold, hard, logical truth. You can have your pretty little cake. You can eat your pretty little cake. But you can't have both.

Buy a Focus ST. Buy a Mustang. Buy a Genesis-R Coupe. Buy a 370Z. Buy a BRZ. Buy a Golf GTI. Buy a Miata. Buy a WRX. If you don't buy them, at least rent them. Take them for a spin. Feel the differences and you will feel the reasons behind those differences. And in the case of power? That reason is usually money. Why is the FR-S and Miata the same price as a Focus ST or WRX but down on power? Because they're bespoke- they're singular and dedicated. Subaru and Ford didn't develop the WRX and Focus from the ground up. No, they had a pre-existing base model that already recouped it's own development costs and modified it into a performance machine. Since they didn't have to recoup the development costs for the entire chassis, they only had to raise the price enough to recoup the cost of the performance upgrades. This keeps the cost close enough to the original non-performance model that the performance model seems like a bargain when in reality it's just a smart use of existing resources.

The Miata and FR-S were built from the ground up for their respective purposes without the assistance of a base-model sibling to help with the bills. Instead, they had to foot the entire development bill themselves. When that happens, the manufacturer has three options:

1) Reduce the budget of the car and eventual MSRP of the car by prioritizing R&D allocations for the car. Keep the price low by keeping the cost low. To do this without lowering build quality, you have to focus on fewer things and often leave more expensive things on the cutting room floor. It's a 'quality over quantity' approach and it describes the FR-S/BRZ and Miata to a T.

2) Go ahead and splurge on the R&D of the car and raise the MSRP accordingly. This is what happened for cars like the 370Z and Corvette. They're better, on paper, but their price reflects this. But even then, corners were cut and shortcomings are had, despite the higher price- they just evened out the compromises more subtly.

3) Reduce the budget of the car without reducing performance figures by cross-sharing platform components and de-prioritizing other aspects, such as visibility, individual component build quality, ergonomics, and packaging. This often results in a more powerful, heavier car with inconsistent build quality, particularly on the interior, but in a price range where those shortcomings are more likely to be excused or tolerated. Instead of sacrificing performance figures to focus on packaging to keep sightlines open, and weight down, they just say "Good enough" on those aspects and fixate on impressive spec sheet figures. This describes the less-expensive Mustangs and Camaros, for the most part.

If you want a lightweight, RWD, fun-to-drive, powerful sportscar, it won't be cheap. If you want a cheap, lightweight, fun-to-drive, powerful sportscar, it won't be RWD. If you want a powerful, cheap, RWD, fun to drive sportscar, it won't be lightweight. The list goes on and on in this manner. There's ALWAYS going to be a sacrifice. And you know what? There's a car for every single category of what is included and what is sacrificed. And you know what's even more awesome? You live in a country with a business model that lets you freely decide, with your own money, which sacrifice is the most excusable for you and your individual tastes and preferences. And guess what? The FR-S/BRZ/Miata just doesn't match your individual tastes and preferences. Lucky for you, there's plenty of other options out there and nobody is forcing you to purchase any particular one.

Desu-San-Desu > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:36

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So, a Nissan 370Z or Hyundai Genesis-R Coupe, then?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 02/01/2015 at 01:39

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Oh I know. It's still funny that the V8's were lighter.

Birddog > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:44

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There are no Stupid Cars.

There are Stupid People though.

Forgetful > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:51

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There are ways to enjoy driving a car that aren't so immediately dependant on how much you get out of pushing the accelerator.

Learning to use what you have is a great way to really learn how to drive.

Forgetful > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 01:53

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All you need is a little hot fodder spirit. Add the power you want.

Leadbull > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 02/01/2015 at 02:16

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When I really need to cop a grade-A road feel, I get down on all fours and lick that asphalt real good.

08GTImkV > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 02:20

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Yeah I agree with basically everything you said.

I understand the point of cars like the Miata/FRS/BRZ. I know people say the Miata is fun to drive at any speed, but I have never driven one so I can't say from experience. I did have limited time test driving a BRZ and I wasn't very impressed.

Regardless of how fun to drive they are, performance is still an important factor to me. The Miata/FRS/BRZ are one of the few sports cars you can buy on the market that are slower than many of the cars you can buy for the same price, while also offering way less features. It is not as if the Focus ST or GTI are incredibly fast either, and I don't think these cars would become compromised for having at least that level of performance. There are other cars that come to mind that make you pay a high price for performance (Porsche), but these cars are either not slow or have other perks of ownership (luxury features).

Also, my problem with the "fun to drive" argument is that it is hard to exploit what makes these cars fun on public roads, which is what I would exclusively be using the car for. These cars are really meant to be fun on winding roads and autocross/track. Handling is important to me, but not to the point that it compromises speed and performance.

So for me, I do not expect to have a high performance car for an unreasonably low price. I just think it is important that a car is more than just "fun to drive." To pay the amount of money the above cars cost and getting little performance or luxury features in return is hard to justify, even for car enthusiasts.

08GTImkV > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 02:25

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Yeah, similar to those cars. I would take something that has hot hatch level performance, but RWD. I don't love the Genesis and the 370z breaks $30k.

Leadbull > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 02:25

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Few people want to deal with the risk of riding a motorcycle.

Decay buys too many beaters > bob and john 02/01/2015 at 02:50

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Why not both? It works well for me!

bob and john > Decay buys too many beaters 02/01/2015 at 02:52

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I only have a bike, so I commute on that anyways :P

Decay buys too many beaters > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 03:11

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I'd just like to point out, there is a lot more to these cars than their paper stats. I track the piss out of an FR-S and you know what? Very few cars can actually hang with it on a racetrack. Sure, the pony cars and the M-barges run away a bit on the straights, but I'm right back on them in the corners.

Most people who seem unimpressed with the BRZ/FR-S are generally expecting it to pull like a high displacement sportscar, aka torque on the low end. They feel the engine bog down at 3500RPM (the infamous "torque dip") right where most of it's peers are at peak torque output, and dismiss it as under-powered. To get the most out of it, you really need to treat it like a Honda and keep those revs way up there. I have never felt the need for more power from 4000 to 7500 RPM.

I take it you have not had much experience with NA performance engines under 2.5 liters, right?

glemon > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 03:23

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That was very well stated, and I agree with all of it as well, the only thing I will add is that in addition to being dangerous on the streets and expensive (tires, as you pointed out, and gas as well) speed is somewhat of a fleeting joy. When you drive a car that is faster than the one you have now the extra push in the back feels great, a real rush, then you buy it, and, at least for me it doesn't take long at all, and what once felt fast now feels pretty normal.

Now my cars have always entertaining, but fairly pedestrian models, maybe breaking the tires loose on a 427 Cobra or a Ferrari F40 never gets old, heck I'd like to find out, but once again then you clearly get back to one of your main points, those types of cars really shouldn't be driven to their limits on the street.

I have been an old British sports car guy forever, so long that when I started driving them MGs and Austin Healeys and such were just lightly used cars (though already starting to rust I might add). I have had many conversations with guys about adding wider, modern rubber to their old MG. I always caution that, if you want to go around the cones faster at the autocross they will help, but the car will be much more fun, and feel more "alive" with skinny period tires, not only can you have a great time exploring the limits of traction in reasonably safety on public streets, but the steering will be lighter and the car will feel more agile.

Driving slow cars fast > Driving fast cars slow—-Indeed!

Axial > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/01/2015 at 03:33

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That light weight is what it's all about, though.

Already addressed that, man.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 03:42

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I like all cars, and i'll be honest; I prefer FWD to RWD, as I have had bad experiences with RWD

As someone who learned to drive in a 1990 golf diesel (45hp. the Miata is a fucking rocketship in contrast.) I respect all kinds of power in a car, especially the low amounts.

I get the whole argument, but the point of a car like the MX-5 or BRZ is chucking it down a backroad. I have empty roads to use, but still prefer taking them in my FWD GLI. And yeah, I've driven RWD cars quite a bit (V6 mustang and RX8 being the two I have the most time in) and you know what? I didn't like them as much as my GLI.

There's one reason for this: Power.

Both of those cars can outpace my car with a proper driver. I like my car's lower limits, since I can hit them more easily!

that's why the MX5 and BR-Z are great. low limits!

but, I'd still rather have a 500 Abarth....

(this makes no sense, I know. It's late and I'm tired AF)

glemon > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 03:46

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My halfway serious response to the economies of scale issue (that the RWD platform is going to offer less bang for the buck because it is unique to the little sports car that rides on it) is to make a practical sedan, a modern BMW 2002, that rides on the sports car platform.

Perhaps surprisingly to some, boxy sedans don't have to weigh more than their sports car siblings using the same chassis. I wish I could come up with something more modern, but I know the old Fiat 124 sedans weighed less than the Spyder convertible. Empty space doesn't weigh much at all, and it gives you extra room to triangulate and brace and all those things engineers like so they can say in the marketing materials for the car that the new chassis is 150% stiffer than the old (which has been going on for so many generations of cars that one must only seemingly have to look back a few generations to find cars with chassis made of well done spaghetti, but I digress).

So you offer a minimal option, way fun to drive sedan at 20-25K. It gets great gas mileage, it is as reliable as a Miata (a car consistently at the very top of JD power reliability ranking for new and especially used models) And young guys that love to drive, but may be married with little ones, can justify the new car purchase to the wife, instead of getting a little two seat toy to indulge their (perceived by some) juvenile fantasies, they are getting a practical package with great reliability rating, good MPG, and a viable, but nor cavernous, back seat, and it is still great fun to drive. Build this on a BRZ/FRS or Miata chassis, and while it will never rival a Corolla in sales, you will have a nice niche vehicle that will sell in decent numbers and promote the goodness and rightness (zoom zoom) of your brand, as RWD is not only fun, it is the stuff of which high end cars that cost big bucks and have fancy German and Italian names are made.

08GTImkV > Decay buys too many beaters 02/01/2015 at 04:02

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Feel free to give me your 2 cents on what it is like to drive the FR-S on public roads. I had limited experience driving the BRZ and wasn't impressed.

This is how I feel about these cars:

Unless you live near winding roads and/or going to use it for autocross/track, the car has incredibly limited appeal. It has many of the drawbacks of being a small sports car and isn't very fast compared to other similarly priced cars.

If you aren't using it for the above reasons, there is probably little reason to get these cars.

duurtlang > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 04:08

5

Regardless of how fun to drive they are, performance is still an important factor to me. The Miata/FRS/BRZ are one of the few sports cars you can buy on the market that are slower than many of the cars you can buy for the same price, while also offering way less features.

Honestly, who cares? I don't know about you, but I don't drag race other cars. I don't time my acceleration with a stopwatch. I don't care, at all, about statistics. I care about the size of the smile on my face. If a Miata/FRS/BRZ is able to generate a larger smile on my face than other cars in their price classes they've achieved their purpose.

Also, my problem with the "fun to drive" argument is that it is hard to exploit what makes these cars fun on public roads.

Not at all, quite the contrary, especially compared to other cars. These cars are the easiest to exploit, because they aren't all that fast from a statistical point of view. If a public road allows you to drive a Miata at 9/10 and a GTI at 7/10 and still be equally as fast, you'll be having more fun in the Miata. That's what it's all about.

Decay buys too many beaters > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 04:19

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I'm saying your definition of fast is flawed or biased. In my experience it's one of the fastest cars in its price bracket ( around a road course)

But then I do live near lots of winding roads, take her to the track, and do extremely limited to no highway driving, so I'm basically the target demographic.

duurtlang > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 04:30

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Like Desu-San-Desu pointed out: Driving slow cars fast > Driving fast cars slow .

I personally own the 1988 Peugeot 205 GTi pictured below. Bone stock, 105 hp, 830 kg (1800 lbs) excluding driver. 0-62 in 9.5 seconds, but it feels so much faster. Not a fast car at all by modern standards, but an utter, utter blast to drive. I'm willing to wager there are very few other cars that can come close to bringing the same amount of excitement while not breaking speed limits all that much, especially if you only consider cars that can seat 4 adults comfortably. While modern hot hatches are better daily drivers I'm willing to bet the 205 is more fun on public roads than any of them. Why? Because it's both very eager, very well balanced and still very easy to take to its limits. I've let many people drive it with me in the passenger seat, and you can see it on their face.

How is this relevant to the Miata versus Focus ST comparison? I haven't driven either, but if the stories are true the ST will be the more practical, rational car, but the Miata will be better able to create a smile on your face. Like my 205.

08GTImkV > duurtlang 02/01/2015 at 04:46

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As far as my comment about performance, stats are a nice reference in regards to speed, even in everyday driving situations. Speed is important to me. And no, I do not drag race others or time myself.

I think the point about driving "slow cars fast" doesn't really apply in certain circumstances. Where I live there are no winding backroads, and I would rather have a fast car than a slow car. However, if I lived in a place where there were roads that tested the handling of the car and not just straight-line performance, then I can understand the argument.

samssun > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 05:32

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These are facts:

1. Mazda makes great suspensions, and lately, body styles.

2. Miata is slow as molasses.

3. Mazda is also too low-volume & poor to develop a decent engine.

Conclusion: Mazda & Ford should revive their relationship, and the Miata should get the 2.0 Ecoboost. And the 2.3 Ecoboost as a Mazdaspeed. And the 2.3 Ecoboost in the MS3, and the 2.7 (3.5 might be asking too much) in the MS6.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 08:38

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Then stick to drag racing and stop complaining.

And I bet you have plenty of roads around you that aren't straight if you spend a little time looking.

Milky > Jedidiah 02/01/2015 at 09:18

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What RWD sedan or truck (did you really say truck?) drives like a sub 3k lbs sports car?

…… don't worry, I'll wait.

Milky > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 09:22

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almost no reason NOT to buy something like a hot hatch

Hot hatches may not be as "fun to drive" or RWD

Looks like you answered that yourself.

Desu-San-Desu > glemon 02/01/2015 at 10:27

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Perhaps surprisingly to some, boxy sedans don't have to weigh more than their sports car siblings using the same chassis.

I have a more modern example: My 1991 Audi 80 Quattro. Same chassis and platform and drivetrain components as the Quattro Coupe GT, minus 10 valves and an extra camshaft, but it weighed about 100lbs less than the Coupe and had a substantially stiffer chassis because instead of having a big empty space where the hatch is, it instead has a massive rear firewall behind the back seats that acts as a huge rear anti-roll bar.

The result? A car that, while slower in a straight lines, is immediately more tossable and offers noticeably more responsive steering and handling and is actually more balanced than the Coupe, with the ability to easily flick the back end out at mid-corner and corner exit for controllable oversteer. It was also cheaper than the Coupe and, accounting for inflation, fell right into your price range. So what did it sacrifice to be more affordable, lighter, and better handling? Well, leather seats, a few electronic toys (luckily it still kept the electronically manually lockable rear differential), and about 40hp. In my mind, it was the perfect execution of knowing what to leave on the cutting room floor and what to keep.

Desu-San-Desu > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 10:54

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What sort of environment do you live and drive in? What environment did you drive a BRZ in? That makes a HUGE difference. I happen to live in what we affectionately call "Mini/Miata Country". I live in Greenville, SC and I can drive less than an hour and be smack dab in the middle of the mountains. In fact, myself and a bunch of SCCA friends, along with my LeMons/Chump car crewmates will make monthly Saturday or Sunday mountain drives and over 2/3's of the cars present are Miatas. Even outside of the mountains, we have very few straight roads and our towns and cities are not set up in a grid pattern. Everything here is curvy and that makes cars like the BRZ and Miata make a lot more sense for us than someone in say, Texas.

If you happen to live somewhere without 'handling roads', then I don't expect you to enjoy Miatas or the Toyobarus and I don't expect you to ever enjoy them until you can experience them in their intended environment. If that's the case, I understand, man. I get it. I don't hold it against you whatsoever. It's why I hate driving Mustangs- I drove on on a mountain one time and I hated the weight and the size and the inability to just peg the throttle whenever I came out of a corner. I also rode in one at the Tail of the Dragon and wound up riding shotgun off the road and into a creek bed. My mistake? Trying to experience a Mustang outside of its intended environment. Now my opinion is forever biased against them because my preferred environment doesn't align with their target demographic and purpose. The roads I like to drive steer me away from power and towards cars like FR-S, Fiesta ST, and Mini Cooper S. The result? Last month I bought a 2006 Mini Cooper S.

When I was selling cars for Toyota/Scion, I sold 11 FR-S's in 3 months. The rest of the sales staff, combined, averaged 30 a year. Why? It sure as hell wasn't because I was a better salesperson- I can't sell a Camry or a Tacoma for the life of me. No, it's because I used to live on a nearby road that was twisting and curvy and technical, with lots of camber and elevation changes and a great variety of corners in a short space. I knew this corner like the inside of my eyelids and I could consistently drive an FR-S near the limits on it no problem to show the customer what the car is capable of, before letting them drive it (considerably more slowly) on the way back. While the other salespeople were taking FR-S test drives on the normal test drive route (town-highway-suburb), I was going the opposite direction and taking them into the mountains to a road that perfectly exemplifies what sort of environment the FR-S was intended to be driven in. The result? My customers came back with huge shit-eating grins on their faces, hearts pumping, while the other salespeople's customer came back going "Hrmm...it feels like it could use more power. And it was a little loud and rough on the highway-", etc. etc.

My advice: Drive a Miata. Drive it on a road suited to its purpose- not a highway or downtown or a mall parking lot (unless it's closed for an autocross, lol). And if you drove a BRZ in one of those kinds of places, drive one again and this time take it to the mountains or somewhere similar. Because driving a Miata or BRZ outside of their intended environment and being disappointed is analogous to driving a Focus ST to a Jeep trail and complaining about it scraping the bottom and getting stuck; no shit, it's not designed for that! :-P

Fun fact- I don't like driving Miata's myself, even when I owned one. But I like them as a car and I can see why so many others love them. I just happen to not fit comfortably in one (the steering wheel is too large to allow proper room for my thighs), forward visibility is a huge issue for me (my eyes are dead level with the fucking rearview mirror, which takes up almost the entirety of the middle of the upper windshield), and I don't like a perfect 50/50 weight distribution, as I find it too bipolar at the limit. I happen to love driving the FR-S (never driven a BRZ) because I got so much opportunity to take them near the limit and learn the chassis while selling them and it happens to suit my driving style much better than a Miata, not to mention the FR-S fits me like a custom-tailored glove and I can see out the front of one way better for some reason (probably because of the lower seat, taller windshield, and rearview mirror placement).

I'm really anxious to try the new Miata, though, as I'm hoping it will actually allow me to fit properly (tilt and telescoping wheel would go a loooooong way towards this) and to see if I enjoy the handling more than the NB and NA Miata's, which I found too soft and prone to understeer in stock guise. Maybe it will finally be the Miata that will let me enjoy the experience to the full extent, instead of making me feel overlarge and blind.

Sinanigans > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 10:59

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Sorry, I'd have to disagree with you. A sports car, traditionally, wasn't always the fastest car on the road. It was the car that provided the best driving experience. The problem is that auto consumers are so obsessed with power (really no need for it, when you consider the speed limits in this country), that regular cars, vans, and trucks are quite powerful. Cars like the Honda s600, the Sprite, and the MGB made very little power, but are the very definition of the sports car. They were about great balance, and telepathic driving sensations. They weren't designed to be great commuter cars, or haul a lot of things. They were designed to be enjoyable. Remember, sports cars are not to be confused with supercars, grand tourers, or hyper cars.

I don't think a lot of cars are well balanced when compared to the power they have. Accords, Camry's, and Maxima's push out nearly 300hp in their top spec guises, but they can't really put that power down - and their suspension certainly can't cope with going into turn with that kind of power. It's not just average midsize sedans that make too much power to be used. Look at cars like the S65 AMG - it's a car that is not much faster than an s63 AMG because it can only put down so much power before the tires spin. So power has to be reined in by the electronics - and negating the need for that much power in the first place. The same goes for cars like

Finally, cars like the Miata and the Toyoburion twins set out to create a special driving experience. And they do just that. You get a lot of feel, vibrations, and noise. They succeed in achieving those goals. This generation got used to being ferried in fast vans and midsize cars - and as a result, we equate driving feel with acceleration. And that is why the Miata and the twins only appeal to a certain consumer.

Funktheduck > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 11:37

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You stole my thunder.

Desu-San-Desu > Funktheduck 02/01/2015 at 11:41

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We could share.....?

Funktheduck > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 11:50

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Works for me. I'm just glad I read through the comments before I posted because you said a lot of the stuff I was going to and probably more.

Desu-San-Desu > Funktheduck 02/01/2015 at 11:51

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and probably more.

Still Oppo's reigning king of TL;DR, baby!

:-P

Funktheduck > Desu-San-Desu 02/01/2015 at 11:55

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My post on the subject Friday I felt was a little on the verbose side and not as well connected thoughts as I intended, but I was on and off writing it while working so I was really surprised to find Patrick linked it in a post about the Miata.

I have really high hopes for it. It's the first Miata I've ever wanted to own. I'm probably a little swayed by my love of my 3.

One thing I noticed in one video that I think will get a lot of negative feedback: the screen placement. Just like in all current Mazdas (I think) it's the little screen added to the top of the dash. I think there will be visibility issues with it with the top down.

Eazy-O > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 12:37

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Yo, bro, lemme talk to you about insurance, bro.

Alex Zapata > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 02/01/2015 at 12:47

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Well I don't know how the old Miata stands to the new one, but my best mate has one and on a straight line my TSi (non GTI) Golf absolutely murders it...

I can imagine a DSG GTI Mk6 or 7 can beat a new Miata on a straight line with a lot of ease, not to mention the Focus ST or its more direct opposition, the V6 Mustang.

If you add corners into the mix, well I've Street raced against Miatas before on the Golf and on my old Mini and it has always been a straight forward win, since most people (regardless of Miata) can't take corners for shit...

Josh H > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 15:59

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So you have come to a forum that loves miatas to say they are stupid. However you have never driven one? Good move. Your opinion means nothing.

Jedidiah > Milky 02/01/2015 at 18:35

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Nowhere I said "drive like" I said "have fun with"

Try reading next time.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > 08GTImkV 02/01/2015 at 19:58

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This seems like a biased, and somewhat stilted opinion away from very good handling cars, but I kind of agree, but it isn't entirely that simple.

The FT86 cars, and Miata (first hand experience on the mazda, at least the NB generation), handle better and more intrinsically than any FWD car I have ever driven, and I have driven V6 and turbo I4 front-drivers with MUCH more power than Miata, and all that does is exacerbate the problems of front-biased handling and power delivery, such as weight bias, lack of traction availability for both steering and torque application, propensity for understeer, a torque-induced steering action, and general lack of feedback or assistance from the rear axle being dragged along.

I am a long-time Miata owner, but make no bones about it being under-powered, and I was likewise disappointed to hear that it doesn't have more power for 2016 than it apparently does.

I have been a critic of the FT86 project since I found out that the development was not going to include the options for an H6, or AWD, and since then, with their refusal to use a turbocharger on the car, from the factory, or a convertible or targa roof. I knew before the concept cars, that the appeal would be limited, and the sales would drop off after the initial novelty and hype wore off.

For an all-handling car, AE86 was not the car to revive for that. MR2 would be the car to revive for purity of handling, and they could have done that more easily, using existing Subaru transaxles with the center diff and rear output shaft deleted, just as they did for FWD in the 1990s.

I can see the point about less power than their potential suggests, though.

It comes down to three questions.

1: Can the chassis properly utilize more power without over-powering the brakes and suspension, and without the engine gaining much physical size or weight... YES

2: If the car were equipped with higher power levels, and all else being equal or similar, that doesn't over-power the chassis, or add significant mass, would the car sell better as a better performing sports car? Obviously, YES.

3: With the actual lower power level, leaving more to be desired, and under-delivering on the vehicle's potential, does the car stand to have enthusiasts pass the car by, and not buy it in favor of something more massive, but also significantly more powerful... I suggest the answer is also Yes.

With all three questions answered affirmatively, more power would help, not hurt, and it is therefore unfortunate that the cars aren't actually more powerful, and delivering more of their potential.